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EoF and the NDA

Thanks for joining us here. I know that with the lackluster performance this year of OGaming many are looking for better high-end content for EQ2. We appreciate your joining us and look forward to your contributions.

That being said, I have a few words about the EoF Beta and the NDA. Many of the admins and I daresay most of the users here are not in the Beta and have not signed an NDA. The information we have been able to glean and post here in advance of the launch come from other message boards, some of them official SOE boards. While the posters there and user here who ARE in the Beta and signed the NDA have a personal responsibility NOT to disclose content before launch, we are under no such compulsion. If a user in the Beta chooses to post NDA info here we are under no requirement to remove it.

For the most part, we are simply scrambling as fast as we can to prepare the structure of pages as much as we can so that, post-launch, we will be situated to apply information as fast as it becomes available. I am going to leave your commenting out of the Mistmoore shield as is but I am reverting your changes to the Beliefs page. --Florence Sopher of Lucan D'Lere 03:54, 2 November 2006 (CET)

Oh, thats fine, I just don't want folks to get in any trouble for posting information that I know isn't public yet. I only edited the mistmoore shield. I don't know who edited the Beliefs page, but it wasn't me: Thats not my IP address. I plan on trying to help out as much as I can with this site, because sites like OGaming NEVER respond to any of my emails correcting their bad information. Hopefully you'll be seeing me around a lot, trying to contribute all I can to this site. I have no problems with putting in stuff thats not under the NDA, and also putting in placeholders and stuff. I've actually done some of that myself with the Secondary Tradeskills article. --Lordebon 19:59, 2 November 2006 (CET)

I noticed, and thanks! As far as submissions of others that cover info you feel is under NDA... leave it for the admins to check. If you like, place the tag {{Admin Needed|reason}} on the page. If we are uncomfortable with it we will edit it. Any liability is not yours, or ours even, but only that of the user that submitted the info. --Florence Sopher of Lucan D'Lere 20:32, 2 November 2006 (CET)


Please Consider NOT Using Your Under Construction Tag

Although final word from Ewil would decide the issue, I would suggest that this is likely a copyrighted image you're using for the under construction pages you wish to tag. Instead, please consider using the {{InUse}} tag that has already been created for this purpose. Your image is so large that it destroys the flow of the information on the page for users who just want to look things up quickly.--Kodia 22:11, 6 February 2007 (CET)

Yeah, I put that up temporarily... I'll be shortening it and using a different image. The current 'under construction' tag will be changed to a one-liner with a small image. --Lordebon 17:05, 7 February 2007 (CET)

Bad ads

Ewil (Talk) says... You had some comments regarding ads you consider to be bad. I want to clarify that I will not remove ads for gold-sellers, as I have argued on EQ2i Contributors, but I will remove gold sellers that advertise exclusively for games that are not EQ2 (namely WoW).

Can you please send me URLs to those ads when you see them?

Veteran's Rewards

not sure if your gonna see this, since based on the logs, you havent been around in a while. but i'd like to take over/work on Veteran's Rewards. Most likely, i'll make a Category with a similar name (so i can include all the items in the cat for easy finding, but i'd like to use what you have now, and also, i'd like to make your page into a redirect to the cat. --uberfuzzy 05:15, 9 May 2007 (CEST)

Misc Random Spell Drops

Hi there. I noticed you added some info to Fallen Emperor Vekin (race and type). Thanks for adding that info. You also removed the line "*miscellaneous tier 8 adept spells" from the drops area. I've been adding those because people have been listing *all* the adepts that drop. If they're random, they've got a tremendous list to choose from, which makes the drops area for a named very large. We've been consolidating them into one line like that for space sake. Just thought you should know. Would love to hear if you can think of a better solution. So far we've not been linking to a category specifically, though that wouldn't be too hard. --Kodia 15:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

no23

rather then you swap in a new template on everypage, want me to add the no23 code to the one thats already in use? --Uberfuzzy 18:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

thanks

thanks for helping keep the peace around here. i've been busy with stuff this weekend. and kodia's away. i've been trying to watch the rc page as much as possible but... yeah, you know how life gets. --Uberfuzzy 02:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

  • nod* Glad to help bud. I've been trying to watch the RC as much as I can ('cept when I was flooding it when I was doing the user credits cleanup, hehe). I'm also glad to see how well having those landing points for the epics has worked out. --Lordebon 02:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

icons

unlocked the icon template. like the plan. let me know how/if i can help --Uberfuzzy 09:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

ifs

{{#if:ANYTHING_IN_HERE_WILL_MAKE_CAKE|cake|lie}} = cake

{{#ifeq:alpha|beta|foo|bar}} = bar

{{#ifeq:alpha|alpha|foo|bar}} = foo

{{#ifeq:{{{1|}}}|{{{2|}}}|foo|bar}}
1=alpha
2=beta
=bar
{{#ifeq:{{{1|}}}|{{{2|}}}|foo|bar}}
1=alpha
2=alpha
=foo
{{#ifeq:{{{1|}}}|{{{2|}}}|foo|bar}}
1=
2=
=foo
Yeah, I realized that later, which is why I switched it to ifeq. I got my (other programming language) in my wiki function /grin. --Lordebon 23:33, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

image in izone

got an example of an izone with an image that needs this update? --Uberfuzzy 00:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Sebilis had one that I commented out, and I think they might make a nice addition to some of the pages but unless they're worked into the template you get what you see on Sebilis if you uncomment it -- it forces things left and cuts out some of the table border. --Lordebon 00:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
both ZoneInformation and IZoneInformation already had support for iname and idesc --Uberfuzzy 10:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm Yeah I saw it in ZoneInformation, musta missed it in IZoneInformation. --Lordebon 15:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Give a Girl a Chance!

I'm not even finished with it, for pete's sake. :p--Kodia 17:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey hey hey, I started editing it before you moved it, so I was there first ;) --Lordebon 17:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Fine. Make sure you add all the missing fields then too.--Kodia 17:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry hehe, I'm just kidding around ;). What missing fields were you referring to? I didn't see any on the template page that seemed relevant to the mob. --Lordebon 17:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Levellow et. al. I thought the mob ranged in level in the woods (12-13 or 13-14). We don't delete fields from templates being used, for the most part. That way when SOE changes their mind we don't have to go back and change things.--Kodia 18:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Ahh, yeah, I do think they range but that data wasn't on the page and I haven't checked in-game as of yet. When you say you don't delete fields, you mean from the template itself, right? I always remove any empty fields in a template call on an article page so that there's not a huge amount of wasted space (EquipInformation comes to mind), but if you mean to leave those fields in on the article page's template call itself then I'll stop removing the blank ones, hehe. --Lordebon 19:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Yep that's what I mean. Although we do have the ability to bot some information back into templates, one of our biggest beefs with SoE is that they change their mind about certain weapons and other items in game. Weapons and armor are just the big things I can think of off hand. What we'll end up having is some bright new editor who realizes that a piece of equipment is not correct and wants to fix it. Say that a piece of equipment changed its +int bonus to a +wis bonus and a heal crit bonus. The editor is smart enough to figure *where* those numbers typically go but because if their newness and lack of familiarity with our templates, they don't know that there should *be* a wis= | field because it's been deleted. If we leave all those fields in, the newest editors can add what SOE changes and we won't have to go back and edit the page again when they leave a message on the talk page or create a whole new section on the main article page that says "As of LUblah, this item now has a +bonus to wis etc..." Make sense?--Kodia 19:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Understood, I'll leave 'em in from now on. And in order to hopefully avoid edit collisions I'll increase my wait time to 10 minutes from 5 (wait time being the minimum time I generally allow to pass after a registered-user edit before I go in and change anything). And sorry again for stepping on your toes, hehe. --Lordebon 19:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
It's all good. No worries on the edit wait time. I'm just as guilty. It'll all work out.--Kodia 20:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Second verse, same as the first. I do usually review my work you know, and I catch 99% of the errors. --Kodia 19:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't resist, and it was only a tiny edit, hehe. That Latest Activity box makes is just so tempting when I see stuff pop up ;) --Lordebon 19:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Page Clearing

Hi there. Just noticed the spell icon work starting. Something to keep in mind...Wikia staff have a cvn list set up that automatically watches pages for large-scale and medium-scale deletions. I appreciate the humor of the message notes, but if you put something like "OMGSPLOSION" on it, the people watching the cvn will have a cow and may possibly come looking to see what's up. They may actually temporarily ban you too until things get figured out. We can undo it easy enough, but I wanted to give you a heads up so that you could adjust your messages accordingly. --Kodia 20:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hehe, appreciate the warning. I'd hope wikia staff wouldn't be so trigger happy to just throw bans around like that. I'll make sure if I need to clear any more pages I make the reason even more explicit: ie "((Clearing page for new template))" instead of just "((Clearing page))". =) --Lordebon 20:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Well I would too, but the general rule as I understand it is better to be safe. We have the defaults set up for the kinds of operations you're doing (it will say clearing page automatically if you don't put anything in), but those are, in general, something for those people who've been "white listed" on the cvn listing (that is, any large-scale changes are generally reviewed and summarily ignored because they regularly make large moves or deletions as administrators). I'm pretty sure you're not whitelisted yet. :)--Kodia 21:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
/Nod. I generally don't do much clearing, but I just wanted a nice clean slate to work with there ((and also to clear the old template out of the cache)). Back to working on my icon template =) --Lordebon 21:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Right TOCs

You know about Template:Rtoc, yes?--Kodia 21:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Uhh. Yes. Of course. I was just... testing you all. That's it. ((I could have sworn there was one, but when I was searching for it earlier nothing was coming up. Try searching for "toc" under templates... nada. You can safely delete the one I made then ;) ))--Lordebon 00:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

LOL. No worries. Uberfuzzy already picked up on it and redirected your template to the existing one.--Kodia 13:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Spell Icon Revamp

May we have the old Category:Spell Icons by Class back, the ones that went to things like Category:Warden Icons and not Category:Warden Spell Icons? Your project does not seem to have gone anywhere, and having those original cats back on top of the Spell Icons would be very nice. Janze-Nek ComsCons 22:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Spell Icons by Class was a construct of my own, and did not replace anything. All of the old ones are in Category:Old_Spell_Icons_Cat, so I'm not quire sure what you're specifically asking for. If you mean to move the categories like Category:Warden Icons from the "old icons" category I made back to Category:Spell Icons, you're of course free to (and I'll change the message on top of Spell Icons to something more appropriate). I do ask that you also leave them in the Old Spell Icons Cat Category, however =) --Lordebon 22:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Category:Spell Icons by Class

It occurs to me that having Category:Spell Icons by Class linked to Category:Spell Icons might be confusing. Users might upload their simple screenshot icons to the categories you are using for your super icons. Perhaps your category should be moved to link to your revamp, so you may have easy access to it, yet casual icon loaders/seekers will not. (The same might be said for Category:General Spell Icons.) Janze-Nek ComsCons 15:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm perhaps, but in all the time since those categories inception is has not occurred. In my experience, most folks uploading icons don't bother looking too deep for the right category for them, but instead leave that to EQ2i's power-user type folks. Since it's going to be a long-term project that will proceed relatively slowly, I think it's just easier to leave the categories inside Category:Spell Icons. --Lordebon 20:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

App 2's still in game

I appreciate "your" template being able to fill in the apprentice spells that cannot be gotten. However, Apprentice 2's are still very much in the game. Visit any of your classes' trainers to see them. Janze-Nek ComsCons 07:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, you are indeed correct. I forgot that those vendors sold the Apprentice II versions. But my template is prepared for that already ;). I've fixed the Instinct spell for now and I'll try and fill it in later. The main reason I prefer to use the version I developed is that when you enter a "?" for data you don't know, it automatically categorizes that spell into a category like Category: Spells Missing Master I Info. I also prefer the gray over the (IMHO) too-dark black used in the standard template. --Lordebon 11:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I like the sorting. I do prefer the black, however. There is more black in use (consistency being a virtue on a website, in my opinion), plus it hides the odd column entry that was misplaced or simply left behind (I run into ap1, ap2, etc., placekeeper entires). Perhaps when a template comes along that removes the ap3 column completely, requiring every spell entry to be updated, a consensus will be asked for and gray vs black will be decided. Janze-Nek ComsCons 18:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I can see your point about hiding text... but that can be just as easily accomplished by just setting the text of gray ones to be gray to match. As for black being used more than gray... that is an artifact of black being used in the current one and, to me, has no bearing on the aesthetics or functionality of the template itself ;). And IMHO, if the worst consistency issues EQ2i has to worry about is grey-vs-black in this template, I'll be a happy man ;) --Lordebon 20:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Nexona

Hiya!
I know that the heals on nexona as scripted, depending on the speciments that are up. That i don't post strats for mobs doesn't mean i don't know the strats ;). Anyway if you know more accurate numbers feel free to leave a comment them at Talk:Nexona where i left a comment about the HP Nexona rougly has including a time frame.
I only say this because i saw the comment at the comment line of your edit, but not at the talk page where others could see it before they add the same amount again.
-- Chillispike 16:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, unfortunately I was about to run out the door (literally), so I wasn't saying you didn't know the strat -- I just didn't want a number based on the various methods of healing of the mob (including specimen draining) as its base HP. The variable heal is based on the number of shinies up, the specimens are different and are what do one-time big heals (assuming they don't get killed the normal way). Sorry if it was kinda snarky, but like I said I was sneaking that edit in right before I had to leave, and 25 million is *way* high. I just looked at the parse for the last time I killed her(? %s doesn't work so well on mobs unfortunately so not 100% sure) and it was only 15 million damage taken, and just under 7M healed so it's base HP is only around 9M, no where near 25M. It really depends on your raid... the closer you are to the 40k cap on Nexona and the more of the specimens you get down the fewer Lifetaps s/he does (and those are big and get bigger, the first two are 900k and about 1.3M). --lordebon 20:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
That's the kind of Information the Talk:Nexona should show m8 ;) -- Chillispike 18:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
It'll get on there, yesterday when I got back I was moving all those AA pages heh. --lordebon 20:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

User Comments and Reversions

Bah. I typed this all on the wrong user page. I'm just gonna link it here for you to go read. *sigh* Next time I drink my coffee first before wiki editing happens.--Kodia 15:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I normally do, since I relaly don't like user comments on main article pages (it's one reason I hate the Strategy sections too, but thats another story for another day). But I was on some wireless at a bowling alley that flaked out and I lost my connection, then by the time I got home I'd forgot about it. Thanks for catching it =) --lordebon 17:03, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the XP logo, I'm still trying to get more familiar with the Wikia way of doing things. Jarod997 00:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem, I was tagging it to resize when you corrected it, looks great =) --lordebon 00:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Fallen Dynasty Tome Collections

Oops! I was looking at the main TomeCQ page, where they are listed one right after another and didn't think to link 'em! Sorry 'bout dat! Melf 14:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

  • I fixerated 'em!
  • Melf 14:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Cool. Leaving you a new message in one sec. --lordebon 20:20, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

CQ Types

No, the CQ Type is dependent upon what type of node the components are harvested from and/or which item is required to see them. The prefix determines what Category they are in.

  • Melf 20:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
No, it's not. The CQ type is an automatic function of the template and if you look you'll see it is the prefix. The prefix defines the CQ type here on EQ2i. Also, in the future please try to keep conversations on one talk page... ie if you leave a comment for me, keep it on my talk but if it starts on yours try to reply there. --lordebon 20:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
From the Template:CQuestInformation page:
"type: Which of the 5 types of Collection Object is the primary type for this quest? (N)ormal, (P)ages, (C)orpse, (H)idden (blue), (HT)Hidden (red) or (M)ultple. Default is N for Normal. This controls which block of text is displayed describing how MOST of these items are found. Some {P}age quests may have an item or two that are (C)orpse drop, but that should be noted on the member line."
The prefix is just a category, nothing more. As the person that added about 99% of the collection quests here, I think I know.
Melf 21:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to step in here before something happens that everyone will find less than collaborative. I don't know if either of you have read it, but Wikipedia:No_angry_mastodons might be a worthwhile read here, among others at Wikipedia regarding the basis of wiki-editing and collaboration. You guys are both doing some excellent work. Let's turn this around to something positive. Rather than continue to edit everyone's talk pages, let's start a discussion here: Forum:Collection_Quests.--Kodia 21:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Not trying to make anything angry. I just left him a note about manually adding [[Category:Tome (CQ Type)]] to Tradeskill: Nurwin Family Secrets which places it in the wrong category. A misunderstanding occurred after that where he thought I meant the type= parameter of the template. I'm not attacking anyone, it was just a note saying that that category didn't belong there and might have been a mistake. --lordebon 21:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Start a forum topic?

RE: NPC, Zone, etc. While a legitimate correction of repeated template misuse warrants a polite note on a talk page, please consider not leaving "helpful suggestions". It can leave the recipient feeling singled out for censure no matter how politely it is phrased - especially if there are other editors currently doing the exact same thing. I would suggest that, if you have concerns about how a person or people are "mishandling" something, you start a forum topic on the subject. Then leave a polite, encouraging message on users' talk pages, noting that the user might have an interest in the discussion as the subject lies inside what appears to be their editing interests. It may also open the discussion to a wider audience, as the Forum is the place people feel free to comment on subjects, not talk pages. The talk page "discussions" of Template:CQuestInformation, its consequent removal to a forum page, and the ongoing changes that are happening to it are an example.

If you open a forum topic on the usage of templates meant only for red links, I might or might not comment. It depends on how it reads, comments from Admins and template builders, if I believe I can offer anything worthwhile to the discussion ... a lot of things. Until then, luck with your computer (said computer being the reason I left this on your talk page instead of replying on my own). Janze-Nek 16:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, Janze-Nek. The only reason I "singled you out" was because I know you're a prolific editor and I wanted to save you a little time if I could, but yeah anytime a message gets left on a talk page it seems like its censuring rather than trying to he helpful, no matter how its written. Those templates are not a big issue site-wise anymore since Uberfuzzy increased the amount of parser functions allowed per page (in the past, too many of those calls could prevent other, more important parser functions from working later in a page) so I was only trying to save you a bit of typing. No harm/foul was meant, and I do like your idea, probably more gentle to say "There's a forum topic with something you might be interested in". --lordebon 18:11, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

rename Sanctum of Bone

are you sure about that new name? just double checking. --Uberfuzzy 14:13, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah -- when someone tried to move it manually, they ended up moving it to the wrong page. I moved it back and then double-checked the correct name in-game: that's the name as it's spelled in my Lockouts window. --lordebon 14:15, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
verify
The Sanctum of Fear: Niscanith's Lair - known on Loot DB
Sanctum of Bone - unknown on Loot DB
Sanctum of Bone - unknown on Loot DB with search too.
-- ChillispikeSig  Chillispike-bubble 14:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
hint to the old zone name on Zam
the new name is correct, but its parent zone name is The Sanctum of Fear --Vraeth 14:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The lockouts window isn't a valid point of checking the Sanctum's Name. What we would need is an in game check of the zone name that appears on the screen as you enter the zone, according to the naming policy.--Kodia 15:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is the lockout window not a valid check? The policy states that what you see when zoning in takes precedent, but in absence of any evidence to the contrary I think it is more than enough. I think the only place the zone is even referred to by that name was in an entry in the quest journal, there has never actually been an epic "Sanctum of Bone" zone associated with that questline. --lordebon 16:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The lockout window is not available for every zone/Instance and therefore it's invalid because it can't be used as same verify for every zone.
-- ChillispikeSig  Chillispike-bubble 16:31, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Exactly so.--Kodia 16:35, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I know it's not available for every zone. My point is that it is still valid evidence of the correct spelling/naming of a zone in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, when said zone has an entry in the lockout window. It's still a valid piece of evidence. The final authority is still what you get when you actually zone in, I'm not challenging that. --lordebon 16:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

thanks

Thanks for help earlier, I did seem to make a hash of it but, I know what I was doing wrong now. I'm used to a different type of Templates.

But thanks again....

Frozentear, 24/03/2009, 22:22.

No problem! Wiki's are a bit strange in their syntax (and is sometimes inconsistent among the different wiki softwares), especially when you first get into it. If you have any trouble at all, just place {{wikify}} on the page and someone will come along and take a look at it; we value having the information there first and foremost, putting it into the template to 'pretty it up' is less important =) So welcome, and feel free to be bold without worrying about making the templates work 100% =) --lordebon 22:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I know why ;)

I think i know how it happend.
If you open a page via Recent changes buy using a option to open them by diff (like the (5 changes) link) and then you hit the edit button you will start to edit an older ID and not the current ID. The edit conflict only work on the top ID to aviod it make sure you open the actual page and then press edit.

The right edit link in your browser shows &action=edit at the end of the link
The wrong edit link shows &action=edit&oldid=363331 at the end of the link

Happened to me before too :( so no worries :).
-- ChillispikeSig  Chillispike-bubble 00:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a possibility. Forgot that it doesn't check properly that way, I must have missed the oldid part in the location bar. --lordebon 02:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Lockjaw's Lair

Hi Lordebon - I'm sorry I'm editing this information here, but I've been looking for about 15 minutes for a better place to contact you and I couldn't find it. I wanted to ask you what happened to the Lockjaw's Lair information. One of the problems with lower tier raid zones is that it's often difficult to get information on how those zones are done. I've been working off of the wikia Raid Timeline page and filling in information as I gain it. I wrote a decent guide to this little T6 zone, but now it's gone and you are the most recent person to edit it. I'm not seeing any links to Lockjaw the mob or to a discussion page either! Please help! Redhandedjill 16:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I moved it to the discussion page of Lockjaw's Lair. I forgot to make a note of it on the mainpage for the zone. Typically, for short instances like that (vs large overland zones) walkthroughs like what you posted do not go on the base zone page but instead on the talk page or the talk page of the respective mobs. I'll add a link back on the main page there -- your stuff wasn't deleted, just moved to a more appropriate home. As for a link to Lockjaw -- again, not something usually done directly on the main page for the instance. It's not the best policy, and it's something we've been working on.
A walkthrough for the zone can be put on the main article page, but should avoid first-person and contain only the relevent information. EQ2i isn't a raid walkthrough site, so our information on such things is relatively limited. If you have any other questions, please reply here and I'll get right back to you =) --lordebon 16:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Lockjaw

Thanks for adding that link, Lordebon!

Still learning how this whole editing thing works, Redhandedjill 16:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

No problem. For stuff like that I usually put a link to the talk page to let folks know it's there, but I must have gotten distracted and forgotten to link it there. A more detailed explanation of why it was moved is above (under Lockjaw's Lair) --lordebon 16:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
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