Forum:Achievements Revamp

Forums: Index > Planning Forum > Achievements Revamp

Post

Do we want individual pages for each achievement? If not, do we want just one major list at Achievements or do we want any breaking-up on other pages as well? --lordebon 01:04, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

there are hundreds of achievements. putting them on one single page would be huge amount of data, even if you hide them with collapsing. i think they should be at least broken up by categories, maybe in actual wiki cats. hm, well now thinking about it, when categorizing them in wiki cats then they would be all on their own article page. some of them dont have too much data, like the dungeon/raid achievements, but for exploration achievements those should be on single pages at least. but you could just list those on the Achievements page, and link the individual pages there. first we should see how really big that list is --Vraeth 05:47, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Fireforkts has been helpful at making a pretty inclusive list at User:Fireforkts/Achievements Info to give you an idea of how many there are. What I've been thinking is this: Have a page for the final version of each achievement (for the ones like Slayer that go through many stages) and then just use redirects from the lower names -- a lot like what we did with the Enchance: AAs back before the spell name condensation. Then categorize them in two ways: Cat (Dungeon) and subcat (Desert of Flames). But I do think having pages for the achievements will be helpful. Then the upper-level categories will have the expand tables on them (if they have subcats) with links to all the individual categories. Thoughts on that? --lordebon 13:25, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

i like it, and want to see them in action how they look :) --Vraeth 14:02, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Adding redirects from lower ones would make it so you couldn't see the whole list or the point values for each level of the achievement. Possibly making them part of a series would allow you to see the whole list in order of point value/kill count (for slayers or other series) so that you can see the different levels of the achievement no matter what point you're at or searched for. Making 1 page for each wouldn't be difficult or that time consuming with a template. Some things I'd like to see on the templates are Achievement Name, Category, Point Value, zone/zones involved in the Achievement, maybe a suggested level as well. Then in the body we can just list off the requirements for the achievement, possible rewards... including the points. For Exploration Achievements we can list off locations. Most of them act like normal quests so adding them won't be that different. Fireforkts 19:28, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The high-level page would show all of the various stages (including their name, requirements, and point value), it would just be a matter of keeping them all one one page since they only show up as one in your achievements tab. --lordebon 20:26, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Heavens. I'm torn. I can see the value in all the ways. Ultimately, which would be the easiest to maintain and which would help our users search both from inside the game and from outside via a normal web browser? Those are the questions we need to really answer and explore. Let's move the convo to Forum:Achievements Revamp and hash some of this out?--Kodia 20:27, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Revamp

Ok let's see what kind of information do we allready have?
Quests, Nameds, POI's are flagged if they give AA but it doesn't mean that they give are listed in the achievement, how does it look one by one ...

• Quests we could link to those when a Achievement says you need to complete 25 Quests in this zone. like Category:Kylong Plains AA Quests
• Nameds (Dungeons):
  • Heroic nameds one are listed, but mostly only the boss or one of x nameds in a Zone (like 1 of the three priestesses of Fyr'un in Living tombs)
  • Each expansion are only a few of them (up to 20)
  • We could do it in the way that the name of the achiviement redirects to the named that grantes it, or disambig if more then 1 mob can give it.
  • And nameds get a new parameter that says which achievement they grant (without a link)
  • The most if not all nameds give AA, but not all are listed in the achievements, because you mostly have to get past those first nameds till you can slay the boss of the zone.
  • Also the achievements only only seem to list non contested nameds
• Exporation
  • List of all Disco points in a zone, it would be worth listing those to keep track if all discos got added to the wiki. The name of a disco point is a good start but the important thing is where it actually is.
• Raids
  • list of the bosses each raid zone, killing all bosses of a expansion grants a Triumph too

To get a good overview i would say splitting them in each category, with a drop list would work best to start with. --    20:30, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

• I like the idea to link quest zone, don't we already have that for a quest category though?
• Named mobs should be easy to list because we can link directly to the mob with bullets for each named you need to kill or each named that can give an update.
• Each achievement should have thier own page, not just a redirect to what provides it... however I do see the value of only having the highest in the series achievements and just adding the lower ones to that page as redirects.
• For the exploration disco's I'm not positive but I'm not sure if it is ALL of them from a zone rather than just a selection of them... but listing them with locations won't be a problem for each Achievement.
• Raids shouldn't be difficult to list, we can link them similarly as we would named. We can link the zone that the mob is a part of as well as the mob itself so that any strats that are posted can be readily available.
• Overall i think each achievement should get a page other than the ones that are a series which can be consolidated.

Fireforkts 04:31, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

In the end a page each achievement is defently nice either as redirect to higher one or maybe achievement timeline lower one links shows all higher ones, but that means like 5k pages + to add which is quite a lot of work.
I would suggest doing it in 2 steps.

1. Overview with the highest title (levels and slayer related mostly) like the achievement window ingame
2. Creating all the "sub pages"

In that way it would give an good overview of what is needed for a template for example and a overview of exsisting pages. Also it would help to compare each achievement on how to add/edit it.

• Quests: We have a category each zone for quests that give AA indeed, the achievement also only says that you have finish x Quests in zone y to get this achievement which helps us to link to the catogory. All we need kinda is a list with the name of the achievement to link to the category in the text.
• Named mobs: A link to the mob works yes, but we need a list with name of the achievement (like you see it ingame)

--    23:22, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Total number of achievements (counting each 'level' individually) is ~500 -- not sure where 5k is coming from. When you cut that down by having just one page for achievements that have multiple stages (like the slayer ones) the actual number of pages with content is reduced significantly. The main reason I proposed having just one page per unique achievement is just to reduce duplication and to match how it appears in game, since the game only shows the next-highest level of a multi-level achievement.

Template-wise, I'd like to keep things relatively simple. Have upper level category (Trimuphs, for example), subcategory (Echoes of Faydwer, and only if it has a subcategory), name, medal icon, and text. Given the wide variety of achievements, I don't think trying to make switches for the various different conditions of it is worthwhile, it can just be done on each page and copy/pasted as necessary and match in-game. --lordebon 23:40, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

*Blush* i looked at points earned for the 5k sorry, 500 is sounds way better =)

So overview a page each achievement should still be the goal, right?

I would look at overviews pages instead of single pages mostly when i look for the achievements i miss, but if i search for a achievement someone else got that i would search for the name.

--    02:37, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Basic list of all achievements that I've found so far is HERE and the largest part is slayer stuff. Those should definitely be collapsed and have redirects from all the lower versions to the final version with a nice chart on that page. Similarly the x quest type ones could be stacked into the same page with redirects. Named, Raids, Triumphs, Tradeskills, Explorations I feel should have a page for each which gives the info. Explorations would need either a pretty picture map with dots OR coordinates for each location (both would be even nicer to help plan an exploration). Quests could get a link to a zone category for quests from that area. I'll use my list as a shopping cart for what still needs to be added, all non blue links to have info put into them. The Achievements page will be sexy with it's lil dropdown menu for easy navigation, but it won't be able to list every achievement because some get condensed... so we just list the species or the final achievement for it for slayers, and list all of the possible ones for other categories with redirects to the last one (so nubs searching can find the name for the ones they want). Each of those should be a link to the info on attaining the achievement. I'm ready to start putting info into these achievements, but some are duplications of links elsewhere in wikia... so I'd like to add (Achievement) to those OR all of the achievement links and possible disambig pages for the ones that are repeats of other pages. Fireforkts 11:08, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

That sounds awesome, but....sexy?;-)--Kodia 13:22, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

LOL, Kodia. And I agree Fireforkts -- all the exploration ones are single-level anyway. As for maps with the points on them, User:Heilig has maps like that on his website. We could link to them or ask permission to reproduce them here at EQ2i. --lordebon 14:05, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Example is up with the basic template. See example at Over Achiever. It's about as simple as you can get, but I haven't had a lot of time to work on it lately. --lordebon 23:55, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Looks good but .. they should be in a own category .. like all quests are in Category:Achievement for Quests and so on.

With a parameter like type where only the 7 basecategories are allowed

--    09:39, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that's something I still have to put in. Although it will more likely be Category:Quests Achievements, Category:General Achievements for main category. --lordebon 12:48, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Categories would be nice for each set in the template. Also under the category Achievements we only get the end line achievements unless we go back and add the tag for achievements to the redirect pages (or something similar?). Could we add the distinction (Achievement) to the end of every achievement awarded now so that we won't have trouble with renames and disambigs later OR should we only do this to the 2 that are an issue and just make a disambig page for each of those 2? Also I was wondering where a list of all the Achievement icons are so far so I can start adding them into their respective achievement. Another side option would be to give a line to the formatting of achievements to show the point value of it. Can we also add a category for hidden achievements that only show up after you've gained them... that way people will know why they can't see them in their journal (or can search just for them directly). Please give me an executive decision on these so I can start adding the rest of the achievements in a consistent manner. Fireforkts 13:28, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

yea i was wondering too about the redirect pages that they dont show under the Achievements category. either we should add cats to the redirects (if it doesnt break it), or forget the redirects and put each achievement's data on it's own page, and somehow link them together.

the article names should be the same as the achievent names, and only disambig them where it's needed.

the template could have more params like point to tell how many points you get for the achievement and hidden to set if the achievement is hidden and maybe the template adds them to a category too

--Vraeth 13:47, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Responding to Fireforkts: No need to add (Achievement) unless absolutely necessary due to a disambig reason. And if you look at the line above Fireforks... I'm working on adding the categories (that's mostly done) and the point value will be visible in the icon -- just like in game. Yes, we can add something to show that an achievement is 'hidden'. Keep in mind that for all the achievements you're adding now, we're going to have to go back and add in more data once the template is finished and has more parameters. Responding to Vraeth: Do we want the redirects to show up under the category, since they would only send you to a page that does show up under the achievements category? --lordebon 14:03, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

adding a category for points may allow future sorting by points or searching by points. This may become more important as this achievement system is expanded upon and utilized (such as spending the points somehow). Fireforkts 14:14, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

we're also gonna need a line in the form for rewards. this will mostly come into play with the triumphs as far as i can see. Fireforkts 14:17, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

OK, that's a reasonable point. Putting a point category on my list of things to add to the template. And yes, a rewards line is on my list. --lordebon 14:18, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

I made 2 changes to the template. The Icon links to Category:Achievement Icons and the protection to autoconfirmed now.

--    20:14, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

re: redirects. if we want to keep track of the number of achievements on the wiki then each achievement should have their own page, redirect or not and if they dont belong to a category they would seem as if they werent present. but for now lets just do them without --Vraeth 10:51, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to predict that the most popular of the interface skins (e.g., profit) will start developing links to this information once it settles out at the main database sites like ours. In that case, a redirect will be critical.--Kodia 11:50, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Template updated with category, subcategory, points, and reward line. There's a known issue with that extra line that I cannot get rid of without screwing things up when you have both the column format and the reward. It has to do with the absolutely frustrating way that MediaWiki handles conditionals and wiki-tables and whitespace. I'll get it fixed eventually, but I've reached my annoyance limit for today fighting with it. With that said, when it comes to the points fields I left that field blank for everything except the top-level achievement for now on the page I edited, so that we don't get over-categorization (ie categorizing the top level 50-point achievement under 25 as well). We can handle this two ways: either leave it as it is now OR we can use the points field as a cumulative measure for the point value of the entire achievement series. --lordebon 21:22, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

and that is why the individual achievements should have their own page if we want to categorize them by points. if we keep them on a single page of the toplevel one, then the previous ones wont get a category, thus cant be found in the cat they should be in. so my idea then is that the achievement template should be similar to the quest one, where you list the previous and the next, and maybe we can name their achievement line and display that too, like Adventurer level achievement, or Kobold slayer achievement, etc. --Vraeth 22:15, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm starting to think that having each be separate won't be so bad an idea. But instead of like a quest with a previous / next, I'd rather do it like a timeline sidebar, which shows the entire progression and exactly where a given achievement is. Thoughts? --lordebon 22:18, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

i support that --Vraeth 22:25, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Yup a achievement timeline gives the best overview in the end. --    22:52, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

A timeline would show the achievements well, can we have that added to the template? I can then go back over the pages we've added already and revamp them. Right now i have all but a few of the slayer ones listed as well as 4 (i think) hidden ones) on this page, and it looks like we're starting to add them into the expandable table on the main Achievements page as well. Fireforkts 17:46, October 5, 2009 (UTC)