Talk: Epic Weapon Timelines

Fabled and Mythical Versions

Epic weapon quests were introduced with Game Update 42. There are two epic weapons per subclass: a "fabled" version that requires completing solo and heroic content and an upgraded, "Mystical" version that will require the completion of some epic content. Chillispike 00:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Added.--Kodia 17:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I spelled it wrong sry, it's Mythical and not Mystical added on page too. Chillispike 09:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Epic Weapons

Would it not make sense, at least until the "newness" wears off, to make a Category: Epic Weapons, with the subcategories of Fabled and Mythical, to have a kind of "one-stop-shop" for the rewarded weapons? It may even alleviate some of the "Can some link the (insert favorite class)Fabled/Mythical?" that's been clogging up the chat channels lately! --Melf 21:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/epics

Yes, but do we not also want everyone to come here?--Melf 19:30, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason we can't have one here too.--Kodia 13:57, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Ohh an excuse for me to make a new template! I'll make Template:EpicWeapon which will accept 2 parameters.... class and rarity and automatically link to Category:Epic Weapons. That might also be a useful place for that table I worked up earlier, perhaps? ((Talking to Kodia there)) Or do you think that just having a blurb and that table would be too much? --Lordebon 17:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the blurb pointing to the table is how we would approach it to keep the integrity of the category descriptions (the whole short is better thing). The category and the list are essentially links to the same information looked at in different ways. When that's the case, the table goes on one page and the category description is short and links to it. But yes, this would be a great place for it.--Kodia 21:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, as in the category would have a link to just Epic Weapons which would have the table on it. Reading what I wrote I didn't make that clear hehe, but thats what I get for writing while trying to pay attention in class ;) --Lordebon 21:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Done! Creating base pages for all the epic weapons now... --Lordebon 17:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Done up through Eye of the Siren, will get the rest later. --Lordebon 18:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Done! I've also made a master category for epics called Category:Epic Weapon Master Cat -- every epic page I saw is now linked into the category either directly (for categories) or indirectly via a different category that is a member of the master category. --Lordebon 21:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

like the idea, not really liking the name, but that can change later. would you like me to linkto that master cat on the top navigation instead? --Uberfuzzy 23:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Improving Epic Weapon Writeups

I've been staring at the Mystic Epic Weapon Timeline and the very nice information in it and I think we need to have a discussion among the active user community about how we want to see the Epic Weapon Timelines to ultimately end up.

When we first started seeing the timelines added to the website, we specifically placed a note on the pages that said "hey, these are going to be messy for a while as people discover how all of this works." We've passed that time and now we need to decide how we want to proceed.

We have roughly two ways people might come to find the information. One, they might click on a link in game for a specific quest within the timeline they're working on. Many of the most prominent interfaces have links at the quest journal level directly to us or to Google which will result in the player ending up here. Two, they might search specifically on epics here at the website. Ultimately we need to cover both contingencies, but we need to think about how people are using them.

How are people using the quests? In my limited, non-scientific, completely biased interviews with gamers, they click on an interface link to get to a quest to either give them a little hint on what to do next or to give them a specific location or name that they don't know. There is also a crowd of users who go directly to the quest on the wiki because they don't want to read the quest journal (which doesn't show the same information as the mini journal window on the main interface).

There is, however, a large group of users who specifically come to the wiki for very long quest arcs like the epic weapons to review what needs to be done. Research, if you will, before they begin or while they're working on a specific series of quests. In this case, we have a completely different use of the wiki.

Here's the dilemma: one of the main goals of the wiki is to keep clicking to a minimum. People usually want information fast and immediate but without clutter or having to read too much. With this in mind, at what point does something like a single page have too much information? The Mystic Epic Weapon Timeline is a fabulous example of great information on all one page and lovingly crafted to help someone through the entire quest. But does it have too much information? Or should the information be formatted differently?

Bear with me here; I realize this is getting long. Take a look at the Mystic Epic Weapon Timeline and then take a look at the Monk Epic Weapon Timeline. The former is detailed, complete (I hope!), and thorough. The later is the epitome of brevity, but is one necessarily better than the other? I say no. And the remaining epic weapon timelines are somewhere in between the two in terms of detail.

Without question, I think we need to keep the Timeline pages. They've become a standard that people rely on heavily for understanding long strings of quests. I think we need to expand what we're doing. I think we need an overall page that is brief on details but includes the highlights of what you will need to complete everything. Specifically, I think we need to include the following information:

• the prerequisites for starting and completing the quests in the timeline, especially any adventure or collection quests, language quests, and faction requirements, linked as appropriate
• the method of starting the quest that ISN'T part of any quest (some quests require you have certain objects on your person and then have you go talk to someone before any quest shows up in your journal)
• the exact list of linked quests in the timeline for each stage, including the subquests (if any, because some don't have any!) that might need to be completed in order to finish each stage
• the rewards for each of the subquests if any (some do and don't have them) as well as the fabled and mythical weapons themselves
• a link to a single one-stop-shopping page, though this single point needs FAR more discussion
• a timeline sidebar listing pre-requisite quests (not ALL pre-reqs) and actual quests and subquests that would also be repeated on each quest page

What are other people's thoughts? I'm of a mind to start revamping some of these timelines to make them more consistent but I'm loathe to change them without having more people behind this.--Kodia 17:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

While i did the Coercer Epic Weapon Timeline line i started to copy/paste the information from the main timeline page to each quest page.

Note: i did shadowknight, warden, fury and brusier one too. While i made those i try to wikify them more if needed for a better overview

What is the first needed information for starting the quest line? The requirements for the quest and to start the quest

What is the most needed information while doing the quest line? your current step of the current quest

The Monk Epic Weapon Timeline is really short yup.

The Coercer Epic Weapon Timeline doesn't show much information either but it shows every single quest and rewards.

Maybe it's worth to add related zones to the timeline pages.

-- Chillispike 19:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

To me, the monk and warden timelines are closer to what the base timeline page should be (i.e. short, concise) although they should have the pre-reqs on them (I'll fix that for warden later, that's one thing I forgot when I made the entire timeline). The base timeline page (to me) should not be like the mystic page with a each quest explained.

However, for such 'one stop shopping' pages like the current version of the mystic timeline I do think we could start introducing a new page, call it an Expanded Timeline or something. That would be like what the mystic timeline currently is: all the quest steps expanded onto the timeline page itself. As for pre-reqs in the timeline template... fine, so long as they're separated into a section clearely marked as pre-requisites and on the first actual quest page are NOT linked as that being a previous quest. These pre-reqs should be used carefully... only a few quests in there (i.e. say if you needed 2 HQs, link to the HQ or HQ timeline as appropriate) but not every little quest needed. Both the timeline and expanded timeline would have 'see also' type links at the top for easy swapping between them.

I think whatever we decide should be made into a new policy, and then we edit existing timelines to reflect that policy. That way its written down and concrete and not just "something that was decided on a talk page somewhere." It should describe the necessary sections (for consistency) and the difference between the timeline and "one stop" pages, as well as the sidebar template and how pre-reqs fit into it. --lordebon 14:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I think so far that we're all in agreement. However it's only been one day that this has been discussed. I believe we'll wait another day or so, perhaps until Sunday to see if we garner any more comments, especially ones with new ideas. Waiting forever doesn't suit our editing purposes, however and I'm going to assume silence gives consent (Qui tacet consentire videtur, ubi loqui debuit ac potuit).--Kodia 16:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

What about simply showing the steps in a sort of outline form with links in the headings and subheadings to a page that goes into more detail, or am restating what has been said before? Even the Monk's epic could be improved on if that were to happen. For instance, in the Monk epic, it says under the heading "steps" that you have to have several journals in your possession and then goes on in the same subheading where you get those journals. Instead, simply say you need those journals and provide a link to the quest which leads to obtaining them.--In other words, all the information necessary to complete the epic is on one page with more information a click away. In the Mystic Epic under the heading Starter, step one could be simply, "1. Sebilis: Talk to Terrus near the jail ( -73, -131, 122 ) to get "Torn Page of Terrus Notes". with a link to the rest of the information. Or possibly, a more abbreviated section on the main page with the present information on a link from the word Starter. Steve M 06:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that's what other people are saying as well, with small variation. The mystic writeup is a very good one, and that's what started all of this thought process. But I think the key point is that we're trying to make sure we reach all audiences that use the wiki. So far, I believe we're agreed on these things. A little more time and I think we can begin the revamp. I'll try to see if I can do an exemplar unless we hit upon someone with some vastly different ideas that make us rethink this in the next day-ish timeframe. Having you guys all help with other classes, as well as anyone who wants to work on their specific class, will be a great boon. We'll get this knocked out in no time.--Kodia 15:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Consensus appears to indicate that this change should go forth. A summary of the decision and an example format will be forthcoming no later than midnight EST in order for updates to proceed. -- Admin Kodia 17:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The initial description of the pages that will be created for each epic weapon quest line is located at Epic_Weapons/Epic_Weapon_Article_Descriptions. Please feel free to comment with updates, as I was expanding on what we discussed here and adding information from the policies and conventions at EQ2i.--Kodia 23:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks exactly like it should be, imho. Oh, and I made a new template spurred by that page and the desire to have oldid links appear as wiki links instead of off-site links. So that link to the mystic timeline now uses that template. The guts of the template came from one I've seen at several others wikis. --lordebon 02:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC)